OTHER SAMPRADAYA SCHOLARS SUPPORT RITVIK- IRM

OTHER SAMPRADAYA SCHOLARS SUPPORT RITVIK

Interview with Sri Bannanje Govindacharya

It may be recalled that HG Vidvan Gauranga Dasa posted a report of his meeting two eminent vaishnavas in Bangalore, namely Vidyavacaspati Sri Bannaje Govindacharya (a grhasta madhva scholar). When devotees of ISKCON Bangalore showed the report to Sri Bananje Govindacharya, he said that the reporting was partial and did not completely represent his views. The devotees continued their discussion with him and it was recorded. Later the interview was transcribed, taken back to him for review so that he is satisfied that we represent his views properly this time. We provide the same here.

Below is an interview with Sri Bannanje Govindacarya, original tape available:

Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Meaning of diksha is to give adhikara in a mantra or any system or in a faith. Who can give initiation? In fact if I want to initiate somebody into gayatri, I must be a realised person. Gayatri sakshatkara is the first requirement for a diksha guru. Siddhi or perfection. Mantra siddhi. Otherwise one cannot give mantra diksha to others, according to shastra. So simply giving Diksha and canceling and taking again another diksha - that is all ashastric, not according to shastra... So this is the problem when we institutionalize a faith. We have to face all these problems, because when you institutionalize faith then all the institutional and organizational problems enter and all the organizational problems will come. Actually according to shastra, none of these swamis can initiate... No swami unless he has attained sakshatkar or mantra siddhi he cannot initiate. That is what....told was correct. Unless he has that power to take the sishya into that height, that elevation, initiation becomes a mere mechanical procedure. It has no meaning. If I want to initiate you I must be able to bring you to that plane and you must be able to meditate upon that mantra and that power should be given. Initiation is not mere mechanical procedure. That is a transformation of a power, mantric and spiritual power and a person who has actually no spiritual power how can he give spiritual power to a sisya. It cannot be claimed by a mere post or institutional powers. Initiation is totally different.
ISKCON devotee:	The point is the 11 ritviks, only on the assumption that Prabhupada is not on the planet they stopped continuing to be ritviks. Is that correct or wrong? We are saying, " you don't have an explicit order. A clear order of the acharya is needed to become a diksha guru. Srila Prabhupada made a system-you stopped the acharya's order!" We are questioning. They are not able to justify that. So are they correct in their justification or wrong?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	No...do they claim that they are no more ritviks?
ISKCON devotee:	They say that they are no more ritviks. They are regular gurus. Regular gurus means, as I told you the definition, according to Srila Prabhupada's teachings, it is very serious thing. It is a very big thing.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Yes. See that is why I have told this is clash between the organization and the spiritual practice. When the spiritual practices become institutionalized, then the institution has certain... it is totally left to the ...you are correct. There is no letter or there is no resolution, any orders. In an institution anything can be changed. The governing body is there and by majority they can vote and they can have a resolution. They can change anything. According to rules and regulations. But that is left to the organizational rules and regulations. That is what I have told, according to shastra, the religious or spiritual part of diksha - giving diksha, a person who has siddhi - siddhapurusa can give diksha to others. Otherwise it has no meaning at all. It is not a mechanical thing.
ISKCON devotee:	So their another argument is that because it is not normal, according to tradition just like son becomes father, it is natural. So naturally disciple becomes guru. This is also natural. So we have become gurus. So if we follow ritvik, because it is non traditional, not in the sampradaya, we stopped practicing it. Is it really apasampradaya? To follow acharya's ajna?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Is it apasampradaya means here in other sampradayas, particularly in the vaishnava sampradaya or the madhva mutts, their mantra diksha is to be taken by a living guru. It is a tradition. Strictly speaking, diksha even here when a swami gives mantra or upadesha to a disciple, the inner concept is that the living guru is not the real guru. Madhvacharya is there in his body and through living guru the spirit, actually the original spirit of Madhvacharya, the original spirit of living guru that is what is functioning. That concept is there. But a diksha living guru is a must in tradition. It is there. That is why they say apasampradaya. See in all other sampradayas diksha swekara from a living guru is generally accepted in all... see it is in practice even in Madhva mutt.
ISKCON devotee:	So Prabhupada appointed these ritviks to do the external aspects of the diksha, like gving mala, spiritual name, etc These are to be done through a living ritviks. So ritviks are living. But the roles are defined and the real aspect of the diksha, giving transcendental knowledge and taking the responsibility of delivering the disciple, Prabhupada continues to do it. In that sense is it apasampradaya?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	No we cannot say that. Because what is sampradaya? Sampradaya is again a constitution- a spiritual institution. And it is followed by centuries and centuries by the sisyas. So any system that is in practice for more than 100 years, it becomes sampradaya!
ISKCON devotee:	Now since no acharya in the past has formed an international society...
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Yes, that is why I have told you, sampradaya means also, it is a spiritual constitution, which should not go against the spirit of vedic teachings. That's all.
ISKCON devotee:	So is the ritvik system, taking mala, name, etc from living ritviks and considering Srila Prabhupada as the diksha guru, violating vedic spirit?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	No no nothing, nothing. That is not that...
ISKCON devotee:	This ritvik system, where Prabhupada in his absence where they act, you know these ritviks as his representatives, and giving, conducting this ceremony while still Prabhupada as the diksha guru, if this process if we continue, is it violating any vedic sastra?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	You see it can be done like this. Everybody must take diksha before the vigraha of Prabhupada
ISKCON devotee:	Prabhupada murthi's are kept everywhere in ISKCON temples.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	You have a temple of Prabhupada, and before Prabhupada himself, no others can give diksha and these people provide name and mala. The diksha should be in the presence of Prabhupada's vigraha. That will be better. That would be better. There will be no problem. Just to avoid problems, see so many gurus, they will leave peeta (the sacred seat), they are falling down. Just to avoid this, you take initiation before Prabhupada's vigraha.
ISKCON devotee:	We are actually not saying that this should be practiced because of a reaction for the fall down of gurus. Even if the gurus are not falling down we are saying you should still follow this because it is the acharya's ajna.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Yes, I have simply told... This can also be avoided. No, that is not the only reason because in fact that is my concept. People ask me who is your guru. I have been taught by so many swamji's . I have not been initiated into sanyasa. That is different. People ask me, "You are being an eminent scholar, who is your guru." Then I used to say, "Madhvacharya is my guru. None else." I don't accept anybody else as my direct guru. Even now if I have got any doubt, I put the question before Madhvacharya and he must send the message, the answer to my mind and I don't ask anybody! So this is a very powerful practice. Taking initiation from mula guru. See these people are instruments, to provide this and that, what ever is required.
ISKCON devotee:	For that we are saying, we will respect them and ...
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	If that vision is created, it will be a very powerful, very good system. There will be no controversy. All the problems will be avoided.
ISKCON devotee:	Will this stop the parampara? They claim that this will stop the parampara.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Why? Taking initiation from mula guru and following the parampara. How can it be stopped?
ISKCON devotee:	This is one of their objections. You can't take from a departed acharya because it will stop the parampara. So who will continue the parampara? That is what they are asking.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	See Guru parampara means, now here is Madhvacharya, (pointing to the disciplic succession listed in Bhagavad Gita As It Is) and then this swami, and his swami, like that 31 swamis are there. So this parampara will be there. Everybody is disciple of guru, Prabhupada. Prabhupada and his disciple, his disciple, his disciple - this parampara will not be there. That is alright.
ISKCON devotee:	That is what Pejavar Swami said, "Peeta parampara (the succession of the sacred seat of the institutional head) will not be there. But upadesha parampara will continue..."
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	There is no problem in that. It is there in practice in Madhva mathas because the guru initiates the disciple. When that tradition is not there, Prabhupada himself is the initiating or diksha guru, then his matha parampara will not be there.
ISKCON devotee:	But will that not stop the parampara?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	No, no how. No question of stopping. Parampara does not stop. All this in an institution, all seniority, junior swamis, who is to become President, something, this and that. All those problems will arise. Managerial problems and institutional problems may be there but in spiritual practice there is no problem. Here there are two aspects. One is external - institutional, managerial problems. When you build an institution, there should be some constitution, some managerial....
ISKCON devotee:	That Prabhupada has said GBC is the ultimate managing authority...
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	And this should not be mixed up with the spiritual practices. It is different.
ISKCON devotee:	Now they show the principle, they quote, many places where Prabhupada expressed himself, "I want each of my disciples to become gurus."
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Anybody can become guru. He can teach vaishnava siddhanta to the masses and he can become guru. To become guru... Giving diksha is not the only method of becoming guru. If I want to become guru, I must teach my disciples and I am guru. My students are there. They give respect to me. They say he is my guru. He taught me this omkar. That is all. Without knowing ... Guruhood should come through his knowledge and his practice.....I mean tapasya. It cannot be demanded.
ISKCON devotee:	In other words siksha. You can always be siksha guru.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	I can teach others. But diksha guru....well, unless I have that power I cannot give diksha to others. So again how can I claim that I have that power. "You don't have that power. I will give you that power..." It is all again a controversy. There is no end to this controversy.
ISKCON devotee:	According to Madhva siddhanta, can a mahabhagavatha fall down? Uttam adhikari, mahabhagavatha?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	The question is irrelevant. Because if he is a mahabhagavatha, he cannot fall. If he falls down he is not a mahabhagavatha. What is the definition of mahabhagavatha? First we have to know that. According to the Bhagavata purana, a person who has practiced the vaishnava system according to Maha Srimad Bhagavatha and has reached certain level. Then if he is mahabhagavatha, he cannot come down. He cannot fall down. Sometimes it happens, even realised souls have prarabhdha karma. That is also told. Even the realised souls who have seen Narayana face to face, eye to eye, Vishnu sakshat kara is there, after realisation also due to prarabdha karma also some people may fall down. That is there in the scriptures. Generally mahabhagavatha cannot fall down - Its very rare - some earth breaking instances - You leave it, it's only for argument sake.
ISKCON devotee:	Do you agree that one can become guru only on the order of his guru? Or can he just become guru? How can he become guru? - giving diksha. Prabhupada says that it is a rule that he has to get an order to continue the parampara. What do you say?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Through guru parampara giving initiation is in practice in so many systems. In Madhva system it is there, in Shankara and Ramanuja system. In all the systems now the person who is authorised to give initiation comes in the peeta (sacred seat of the institutional head). Whoever comes in the peeta is authorised to give. That tradition is there now. And in fact, this is just a managerial system, administrative system. Just to solve the administrative problem, they have adopted this method. Strictly speaking, in the spiritual field anybody can initiate who is siddha purusha and even if not entitled by guru. Traditionally this is not accepted. If I am a mantra siddha, I need not have a sanction from my guru or any tradition. I can initiate anybody. This is sastric. But there are two things - institutional systems is that only the peeta-adhipati (the person presiding over the peeta) guru can initiate. That is the system in the Madhva mutts. In fact only siddha purusa can initiate and he need not be a siddha purusa who has come in the traditional way in the peeta.
ISKCON devotee:	But he has to be authorised.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	He is authorised.
ISKCON devotee:	If he is a siddha purusa, automatically the authorisation will be there for him.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Yes, yes. That's what I am saying. If he is not siddha purusa, though he is there in the peeta, lineage, according to sastra he is not authorised. But the present system accepts that he is guru! But according to the sastra, he need not come in the peeta, if he is a siddha purusa and he is realised, he can give diksha to anyone. There is no sanction of tradition that is necessary to accept him as guru. The only requirement for diksha is I must be a realised person, siddha purusa of that mantra which I am giving you. If it is Vishnu mantra, I must be siddha in that Vishnu mantra or Narayana mantra or whatever it is. This is not only giving mantra upadesa but this is accepting somebody into the fold of a certain system. Then some system must be there. Its again institutionalisation. Some system. Then whatever the tradition says that is to be accepted to accept him into this fold. So all the other sampradayas accept that there is a guru paramapara in the peetas and they are entitled to give diksha. According to sastra anybody can give mudra dharana. I can give mudra to my children. But according to the present practice in the mutts, sampradaya system, they do not accept it. They say, "Only we have the authority. Only we have the authority. We can give mudra dharana. But nobody else..." Some of our swamis say, "These people belong to Uttaradi mutt, they belong to Pejawar mutt.." and so on. Again there is division. "And you cannot take vaishnava diksha from some other swami. I am your mula vidya guru. You take diksha from me." No it has become a social right. Spirituality has nothing to do with this. This is again the present plight of the muttas. There are two things. One is the social aspect of traditional acceptance, another is spiritual practice.
ISKCON devotee:	That's interesting. So we understand that the spiritual component of diksha Prabhupada retains for himself.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Yes that is what I am saying. It is safe. If we accept the spiritual diksha is Prabhupada, if we accept that then so many problems will be solved.
ISKCON devotee:	According to our Governing Body themselves, they agree that they cannot deliver the souls back to Krishna. It is Prabhupada only that much they agree. The only thing is they don't want to give Prabhupada the post of diksha guru. Of course now the siddhanta is diluted so much because of the lack of qualified diksha gurus that they are saying that even a kanistha adhikari or madhyama adhikari can become guru. But Prabhupada cannot become diksha guru. His only disqualification is that he is not present with us.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	In other sampradayas they say that only living guru can give diksha. Therefore they are also claiming the same thing. In other sampradayas the diksha guru must be a living guru. He cannot give diksha with his spiritual body, non material body. He must give with his gross material body only - that tradition is there. This is not siddhanta or apasiddhanta. Tradition is a social system. It is nothing to do with the spiritual. Society accepted this just to have a control on disciples from the peeta or matha. Swami should have certain control of the disciples. So they have accepted certain rights - they are his copyrights! So that he can have certain control over the society. This is a social system presently accepted by the spiritual priests. Philosophy and practice have nothing to do with it.
ISKCON devotee:	I cannot claim to become regular guru - for that I have to provide evidence. These are the only two questions we are asking them.
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	Spiritually you are correct. For the organizational system if there is any thing to be done, that is left to you. I don't know. If there is any social problem it has to be set right.
ISKCON devotee:	In short, is the ritvik system against any vedic system?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	It is neither vedic nor non vedic. Just to have an international contact, Prabhupada himself created this system and he is the final authority. It is not against the preaching of the vedas.
ISKCON devotee:	So Prabhupada can remain a diksha guru and these people can conduct just like the ritviks?
Sri Bannanje Govindacarya:	That can be done. There is no problem in this system. Because it is an international institution it is natural that all the people may not be scholars in sastras or sanskrit. But they will be managerial heads. That is why it is inevitable to accept Prabhupada as diksha guru. It is essential thing to accept him as diksha guru and these are the instruments.

OTHER SAMPRADAYA SCHOLARS SUPPORT RITVIK

When we (devotees at ISKCON Bangalore) came to know that HG Basugosh Prabhu, was arranging a conference of Madhvas & Srivaishnava Scholars to discuss the guru issue, we vehemently opposed. As we found no authorization from Srila Prabhupada for such an exercise. We see HG Basugosh Prabhus' postings are misleading devotees around the world by his one sided presentation. However, since the exercise has begun we find it only appropriate to present the response of these scholars what they actually say on this issue after objectively presenting the guru issue to them. HG Vidvan Gauranga Das had written in one of the postings on Chakra about these scholars:

'Vidyavachaspati' Bannanje Govindachar: Disciple of Vidyamanya Tirtha Swami, Mathadhisa of Palimara Matha. He is a very prominent lecturer and scholar, recognized by the 8 mathas. Bannanje Govindachar, the Maadhva devotee-scholar was awarded the title 'Vidyaa-vaachaspati' by one of the 8 Madhva-mathas. (read the interview posted with Govindachar, above)

Sri Sri Rangapriya Swami Desikachar: A broad-minded Sri Vaishnava scholar and sannyasi. He was previously a professor in National College, Bangalore. He is a Sanskrit scholar. He has disciples who come from Smaarta, Sri Vaishnava and Maadhva backgrounds. (for the information of the readers, these two above mentioned scholars were not invited to the conference by HG Basugosh Prabhu!)

The following was a short interview with HH Rangapriya Swami:

Question:	According to Srila Prabhupada's letter of July 9^th, 1977, if we accept Srila Prabhupada as the diksa guru and receive initiation from the ritviks, is this system in accordance to sastric principles, what is your holiness' opinion?
HH Rangapriya Swami:	It appears from the system of initiation that Srila Prabhupada has proposed in his letter of July 9^th 1977, that he wished to remain the diksha-acharya, vanquish sinful reactions of the disciples, take the responsibility of delivering his disciples and this way continue the parampara through the rtviks. This is a new system. Since such new systems have been created in the past by the acaryas, it appears that Srila Prabhupada desired such a system. This is our humble opinion and it is not in violation of any shastric principles.
Question:	Do we have to fear that the Parampara will stop if we follow the ritvik system?
HH Rangapriya Swami:	By this system we do not have to fear that the parampara may stop. The rtviks belong to his parampara. The new disciples also belong to his parampara. Who ever follows his instructions also belong to his parampara. His books will represent him; his peeta (the sacred seat) will represent him; his sandals will represent him; his murtis will represent him.
Question:	If we ask the new disciples initiated by this system, 'Whose disciple are you?" what should they say?
HH Rangapriya Swami:	They should say, 'Srila Prabhupada is my guru.' Others can be called ritviks and can be respected for their seniority.
Question:	As long as ISKCON exists, can this system be followed?
HH Rangapriya Swami:	Yes, there is no problem.

Copy of the letter given to ISKCON:

11.1.99 - I have acquainted myself with the life and message of His Holiness Srila Prabhupada including his message in the letter of July 9^th, 1977. I also understand there is some controversy going on among the disciples of the great guru regarding the positions of the diksha guru and officiating acharyas called rtvik acharyas who give diksha as deputees of the original acharya, even as Prince Bharata officiated as the ruler on behalf of Sri Rama's padukas. In this connection, keeping in view the spirit of Srila Prabhupada and the continuation of the great tradition given by him, we recommend that the office of the rtvik acharyas should continue as intended by Srila Prabhupada.

Srila Prabhupada's system accords a unique position to the acarya by declaring that he should be a Master Yogin, who takes upon himself the spiritual responsibility of the disciples including the destruction of all their sins and deserves worship due to Bhagavan Himself. The rtvik acharya continue the line of HH Srila Prabhupada, and he should be accorded reverence in accordance with his contributions. But he should not be considered as an object of meditation and worship. Nor should he be considered as infallible. He should be appointed by the governing council and give diksha as a deputee of Srila Prabhupada without violating the letter and spirit of his message.

The rtvik system propounded by Srila Prabhupada does not violate in anyway the shastras' injunctions.
Signed. Rangapriya Swami.

More Vaishnava Acharyas Accept Ritvik

Dear Maharajas/prabhus,
Please accept my humble obeisance. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.
Please find below the result of some more research with other sampradayas.

Prof Tatachar was also approached by Sriman Basu Gosh prabhu and Vidvan Gauranga in connection with the vidvat goshti. For some reason, he could not attend the same. However he gladly gave a letter and answered questions in an interview.

Your servant,
Madhu Pandit Dasa.

Part 1. A letter given by Prof Tatachar, Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Mandya district, Karnataka.
Part 2. Excerpts of an interview with Prof Tatachar.
Part 3. Biodata of Prof Tatachar.

Part 1. A letter given by Prof Tatachar, Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Mandya district, Karnataka.

Prof. M A Lakshimtatachar,

Jan 30th, 1999
Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research

Respected Madhupandit ji,

Humble Pranams. Before writing this letter let me introduce myself as a Sayamacharya belonging to the family of Anantanpillai otherwise known as Anandacharya who was one among the simhasanadipathis appointed by Ramanuja himself to initiate disciples into Srivaishnavism. Further I have also continued the same tradition as I am initiating many into Srivaishnavism in the name of my revered acharya Sri U. Ve. Alwar Tirumala Iyengar Swami who was the 34th successor in the Acharyapurusha parampara. I have also enclosed herewith my bio data, which gives some information about my educational and philosophical background.

Now, I learn that there is some discussions are going in ISKCON regarding succession. The bone of contention is whether Ritviks appointed by HH Srila Prabhupada could be considered only his representatives or should they be considered as acharyas themselves as they are initiating the disciples into the Hare Krishna movement.

I have very carefully gone through the letter of HH Srila Prabhupada, which was issued on July 9th 1977.
According to me this letter has five parts.

In the changed circumstances permission to certain disciples to act as ritviks - as his representatives.
Specific names of these who can act as ritviks - representatives of Srila Prabhupada
Change of procedure
Stress on the point that after initiation from the ritviks appointed by HH Srila Prabhupada they are considered to be disciples of HH Srila Prabhupada only.
The action to be taken to include the names of the initiated in the disciples book of HH Srila Prabhupada only.

The letter categorically makes it clear that the eleven Ritviks can never claim acharyaship as they are the only representatives of HH Srila Prabhupada. They are like the instruments in the hands of acharya for the sake of initiation. The letter stresses again and again that the initiated are the disciples of HH Srila Prabhupada only. Refer to these statements:

Ritvik - Representative of the Acharya for the purpose of performing initiations.
Ritviks - These representatives may accept the devotee as an initiated disciple of Srila Prabhupada
The newly initiated devotees are the disciples of HDG Srila Prabhupada.
The name of the newly initiated disciple should be sent by the representative who has accepted him/her to Srila Prabhupada to be included in HIS DIVINE Grace's "Initiated disciples book."

There are several such instances in Sri Vaishnava Parampara (tradition). Take the example of Sri Ramanujacharya himself who was the foremost amongst the Srivaishnavacharyas. He was initiated into the Srivaishnava texts and secrets by five great acharyas who are the disciples of Acharya Yamuna. That is why is called Panchacharya Pradarshita.

Though he was a disciple of these five Acharyas, just like the Ritviks appointed by HH Srila Prabhupada ji, these ritviks never claimed that they were the 'Acharyas' of Ramanujacharya. On the other hand it seems Yamunacharya had seen Ramanuja only once in Kanchipuram when he was studying with Yadava Prakasha and he also showered blessings on Ramanujacharya from a distance. Very interestingly; Ramanucharya mentions Yamunacharya and offers obeisances to him in his benedictory verses found in the beginning of the Vedartha sangraha. This shows that Acharya Ramanuja is considered to be a sishya of Yamunacharya only.

Besides the very concept of Ritvik has a special significance here. In the olden days there would be a Yajamana who could engage Ritvik, Adhvaryus etc., for the performance of sacrifice. These people after performing the sacrifice would get some dakshina. But the net result of the sacrifice would go to the Yajaman himself, as he was mainly responsible for the performance. The ritviks were entitled only to initiate disciples into the Hare Krishna Movement. But the disciples thus initiated by these representatives are always considered to be the disciples of Srila Prabhupada only. Since he is the yajamana who has engaged these ritviks for the performance of initiation.

Again I have to stress that the letter makes it amply clear that the disciples thus initiated by the representatives of Srila Prabhupada are only the disciples of Srila Prabhupada only, not of the representatives.

I also want to confirm that this system can continue perpetually even in the physical absence of HH Srila Prabhupadaji

as it has continued in Ramanujas tradition as any person initiated by any acharya has dasyanama like Lakshmittathacharya Ramanuja Dasa though Ramanuja passed away long ago.
Hope, Madhupandit Dasaji, I have made my point clear.
With warm personal regards,

Yours sincerely,
Lakshmi Tatachar (Signed)

Part 2. Excerpts of an interview with Prof Tatachar.

Can an acharya who is not physically present give diksha?

ISKCON devotee:	Our point is that although Srila Prabhupada is not physically present, that does not in any way stop the validity of his continuing to be diksha guru.
Sri Tatachar :	Definitely. That is my view.
ISKCON devotee:	Can the absence of a physical body limit the functioning of the acharya, in terms of Srila Prabhupada being able to impart knowledge and take karma of the disciples? Can Srila Prabhupada do this now?
Sri Tatachar :	Just because somebody has a physical body, can he take your karma? Is he competent to do it? The presence or the absence of the physical body is not the criteria to take away the karma of a particular person. On the other hand, it depends on the devotion of the disciple and the grace of the acharya. Say for instance, Srila Prabhupada's guru was not there when Srila Prabhupada was present. Do you mean to say that they are not capable of taking the karma of their disciple? The interesting thing is (quotes a verse in Sanskrit from Yatindra vimsati composed by Sri Manavala Mamuni of Sri Vaishnava sampradaya, who appeared nearly 200 years after Sri Ramanuja).
ISKCON devotee:	So what is the import of this statement?
Sri Tatachar :	That means though the guru is not physically present, he can take away all the karmas of the disciple. That is the potency of the acharya. In that way, it is not important whether the acharya is alive with a physical body or not. That is not important.
ISKCON devotee:	One of their objections is that it stops the parampara.
Sri Tatachar :	How does it stop the parampara? These ritviks will further appoint ritviks.
ISKCON devotee:	There is a provision for that. Prabhupada says more can be added when necessary.
Sri Tatachar :	More can be added and these ritviks will initiate all of them into the Hare Krishna movement and Srila Prabhupada will be their guru. What harm is there? Because the very word 'ritvik' has a special significance here. What do you mean by ritvik? A person who performs this particular duty. Suppose a king performs a sacrifice he is considered a yajaman. Even now wealthy people organise for us, Sudarshana homa. Probably in your place also. So that person is called a yajamana. When we came to your place Madhu Pandit Das was the yajamana. He didn't perform the sacrifice. He engaged all these people - Venkatesh and I came and many other people came and we performed the homa. After performing the homa we were given dakshina. So our relationship ends there itself. Because we had received the dakshina for the service we had rendered. But the end result goes to whom? To the yajamana only. Similarly, these ritviks get some dakshina from the persons whom they initiate. Once that is done their work is over. But the result that such and such a person is a disciple of such and such a guru goes to SP. That's why the word ritvik is used here. Otherwise he would have used a different word. And he would have stated that these are my sishyas, these sishyas are here afterwards considered to be the gurus to succeed me. "He is my successor," he didn't say that.

Does the rtvik system violate any Vedic principles of guru parampara?

ISKCON devotee:	You have compared the arrangement in the Sri sampradaya with that of the rtvik arrangement that Srila Prabhupada has directed us to follow. (He also supervised the running of this system from July to November, 1977). In rtvik system, there is an important difference. Here Srila Prabhupada is not giving any guruship to the rtviks...
Sri Tatachar:	Yes, that is right, that is what we see from the letter also.
ISKCON devotee:	In the event of the rtviks being representatives only and not being gurus, is there a violation of any shastric principle or is it violating any spiritual...
Sri Tatachar:	No, it is not violating. On the other hand, it supports what I have stated. In the case of Sri Ramanuja, I have stated that he appointed 74 simhasana-adhipatis and made them gurus. In spite of that we owe our allegiance to Sri Ramanuja only.
ISKCON devotee:	You are saying that in spite of being some sort of guru, you are the disciple of Sri Ramanuja only?
Sri Tatachar:	Yes, definitely. That is why we say that we are Sri Ramanuja dasan only. I have to say, adiyen madhura kavi Lakshmi Tatacharya Ramanuja dasan, when I prostrate before anyone. Sri Ramanuja dasa is the common thing found in all the Sri Vaishnavas, though we have been initiated by one of the simhasana-adhipatis appointed by Sri Ramanuja himself who were considered to be gurus. In spite of this we are expected to state that we are disciples of Sri Ramanuja only.
ISKCON devotee:	In our case it is clear that Srila Prabhupada did not give any guruship...
Sri Tatachar:	So it is all the more clear and imperative because Srila Prabhupada mentions very clearly in the letter that these are rtviks. That is why I have given the meaning of the rtviks - this word comes from the rig veda. The rtvik is a sacrificer who is appointed by the yajamana. Suppose you are the yajamana, you can appoint me as the rtvik and this rtvik performs the role of a priest on behalf of the yajamana. This may happen when the yajamana does not know the vedic rituals or even if he knows and if he is not in a position to perform this role, then he may appoint a rtvik. So he will perform the sacrifice and give dakshina to the rtviks...Who gets the result of the sacrifice? It obviously goes to the person who has engaged these rtviks and sent money for the sacrifice, the yajamana. The word rtvik is very significant. That is why Srila Prabhupada was so clever to say that they are only rtviks and not acaryas. So the result goes to Srila Prabhupada only.

Again, will the parampara stop?

ISKCON devotee:	In the Bhagavad Gita, Srila Prabhupada gives the guru parampara - Brahma, Narada, Vyasa...and so on till Srila Prabhupada. In the rtvik system, who comes after Srila Prabhupada?
Sri Tatachar:	Srila Prabhupada himself. Only the rtvik system continues and Srila Prabhupada is the guru.
ISKCON devotee:	When that happens, is the parampara not stopping?
Sri Tatachar:	No. What can be done? Srila Prabhupada has not appointed an acharya. The parampara continues through a chain of rtviks.

Is authorization essential to become an acharya?

ISKCON devotee:	One final question is that for somebody has to become an acharya, how important is it for him to receive an authorisation to take that post from the previous acharya? In this case, there is an authorisation to continue to as a ritvik and ritvik alone, there is not authoriation to function as guru. How important is it to receive an authorisation?
Sri Tatachar:	It is very much necessary to receive an authorisation. Without an authorisation you cannot do. Generally what happens in the Srivaishnava parampara, they were always worried about the succession ( Tamil sloka). Who will be the successor to take care of the propagation of this system? When the acharya was about to pass away, he would nominate a person to take care of the panth and hold the mantle thereafter. That is how it has been done. That is why even in the Srivaishnava parampara, while giving sannyasa, he cannot take sannyasa on his own. The acharya will give the sanyas and say that here afterwards he will be the mathadipathi.
ISKCON devotee:	That means authorization is a must.
Sri Tatachar:	IT IS A MUST
ISKCON devotee:	To become a guru or a mathadipathi or a peethadipathi
Sri Tatachar:	Yes, yes, yes. Otherwise I am very sure that SP would have used another word altogether instead of 'ritviks'. 'These are my successors' - no problem. He never said 'successors'. Again and again he stresses 'these are my representatives only', 'they are only expected to initiate them, ultimately all of them are my disciples only, not the disciples of others'.

Part 3: Biodata of Prof MA Tatachar

Presently Director:	Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Mandya district, Karnataka.
Educational qualification:	MA (Sanskrit) University Gold medalist Navinanyaya vidvan (President of India's Gold medalist) Alankara vidvat madhyama Visastadvaita and other schools of philosophy
Work experience:	Head of the Department of Sanskrit, Govt college, Chitradurga and Bangalore. Director, Academy of Sanskrit Research, Melkote, Mandya district, Karnataka. Teaching Visistadvaita, Sanskrit and Shastras at MA, Mphil and PhD levels.

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